Taxing digital promoting may assist break up huge tech

Taxing digital promoting may assist break up huge tech

For the previous a number of years, economists, and authorities leaders have usually sounded alarms in regards to the risks of massive tech monopolies. On her 2020 marketing campaign web site, for instance, Senator Elizabeth Warren stated “huge tech firms have an excessive amount of energy, an excessive amount of energy over our economic system, our society, our democracy.” Within the months for the reason that election, politicians on each the left and proper have expressed considerations over learn how to encourage competitors and innovation among the many huge tech leaders, and even learn how to maintain onto democratic beliefs within the face of digital misinformation and conspiracy theories.

The problem with an organization like Fb is that its enterprise mannequin actively encourages tribalism and anger, which isn’t the best way markets normally work, says Paul Romer, an economics professor at New York College who beforehand served because the chief economist of The World Financial institution and was the co-recipient of the 2018 Nobel Prize in Economics Sciences. “When economists defend the market, now we have this quite simple thought in thoughts, the place I as a purchaser give one thing and get some good again,” he says. “None of these options are attribute of this new marketplace for digital providers, the place promoting is just like the hidden technique of capturing compensation for these companies.”

Customers, he says, “are being manipulated in ways in which they do not totally perceive.”

Regulators received’t work as a result of huge tech companies are too highly effective, Romer maintains, whereas conventional antitrust legal guidelines are usually not well-suited to cope with this downside. However a progressive tax on digital promoting income, handed by state legislatures, may create a singular incentive for firms comparable to Google and Fb to separate up their companies and discourage progress by acquisition.

Such a progressive tax mannequin, nevertheless, must be aggressive: “The sort of tax that I feel would create an enormous incentive to vary at, say, Google and Fb, the 2 greatest companies on this market, needs to be a tax the place the typical tax price they pay proper now, given their measurement, is 35% of their income.”

Present notes and hyperlinks:

“Taxing Digital Promoting,” Paul Romer, Could 1, 2021

“Maryland Breaks Floor with Digital Promoting Tax,” Nationwide Legislation Overview, March 17, 2021

“As soon as Tech’s Favourite Economist, Now a Thorn in Its Aspect,” Steve Lohr, New York Instances, Could 20, 2021

Full transcript:

Laurel Ruma: I’m Laurel Ruma from MIT Know-how Overview and that is Enterprise Lab, the present that helps enterprise leaders make sense of latest applied sciences popping out of the lab and into {the marketplace}. Our matter at present is taxing digital promoting. Can taxes particularly geared toward breaking apart huge tech be levied to encourage competitors, innovation, and assist democracy? The 5 largest tech firms, Fb, Amazon, Apple, Alphabet/Google and Microsoft are value a mixed $7 trillion. What financial efficiencies might be gained within the struggle for equity? Two phrases for you: Rethinking capitalism.

My visitor is Paul Romer, an economics professor at New York College who served because the chief economist of The World Financial institution. Paul was the co-recipient of the 2018 Nobel Prize in Economics Sciences, for his work in integrating technological improvements into long-run macro financial evaluation. For the primary time, this built-in concepts and innovation into financial fashions and clarified the societal advantages which might be potential when folks come collectively to collaborate in new methods.

This episode of Enterprise Lab is produced in affiliation with Omidyar Community.

Welcome to The Enterprise Lab, Paul.

Paul Romer: It is good to be right here.

Laurel: United States Senator Elizabeth Warren stated, and I quote, “Huge tech firms have an excessive amount of energy, an excessive amount of energy over our economic system, our society, our democracy.” What’s the hazard of monopolies, of those giant highly effective firms?

Paul: That is a well-crafted sentence by Senator Warren as a result of it ends on an important level. The true hazard right here is the risk to our democracy. The second most essential one is the risk to the social cloth that determines our high quality of life. One of many issues with economics and the best way it has approached antitrust is that it has uncared for these two points and targeted on very slim questions: Are companies charging an excessive amount of for some service? And does that imply that some folks aren’t utilizing as a lot of it as they might? However that captures solely a small fraction of the injury that is being performed by having companies which might be so giant, and companies which might be utilizing a specific enterprise mannequin, this mannequin primarily based on focused digital promoting, which has created so many dangerous incentives, and which creates such uncommon dangers for our democratic system.

Laurel: What are a few of these dangers?

Paul: The character of the promoting mannequin is that these companies wish to preserve folks engaged watching the display screen, in order that they see extra advertisements. Fb found, and their analysis has been printed on this, that if they might create extra rivalry, extra animosity, extra anger, folks would keep engaged for an extended time period. And so we have got a enterprise mannequin which is actively encouraging a few of the most damaging sides of human nature, this tribalism, this anger, this tendency to deal with your opponent as an enemy who’s nearly inhuman. So this isn’t the best way markets normally work. When economists defend the market, now we have this quite simple thought in thoughts, the place I as a purchaser give one thing, I give cash to a vendor. I get some good again. After which if I do not like what I get again, I can take my enterprise elsewhere. None of these options are attribute of this new marketplace for digital providers, the place promoting is just like the hidden technique of capturing compensation for these companies. And customers are being manipulated in ways in which they do not totally perceive.

Laurel: So what sort of regulatory actions may have or ought to have been taken to confront the expansion of a few of these monumental firms?

Paul: To be trustworthy, push again in the event you don’t love this reply, however I have a tendency to love to look ahead. We may have a look at selections that we made prior to now that had been a mistake. However I feel the actually essential ones are: What ought to we do now?

Laurel: To go forward and problem that, is it one thing that must be checked out maybe extra often? I imply, do now we have to attend till one thing actually dangerous occurs, till an election is nearly overthrown?

Paul: Effectively, I’ll say I feel we have been negligent. Economists and individuals who form opinion, individuals who fear about coverage, I feel we’re responsible of gross negligence in letting this downside fester and change into so dangerous. So I feel it’s totally clear to me that we have to do one thing to cease the trajectory that we’re on. And I feel it is an enormous mistake on all of our components that we did not act sooner. However the actual query is: What will we do now?

Laurel: There’s two points right here, proper? One is the best way that these monumental firms make the cash, after which the enormity of those monumental firms.

Paul: Effectively, of these two, I feel this enterprise mannequin, primarily based on focused digital promoting, has created these monumental incentives for spying on folks and amassing data. A number of years in the past, I began saying that these companies know extra about me than the Stasi knew about folks in East Germany. And that was sort of like a controversial factor to say again then. Now all people simply accepts that. They suppose that is simply the inevitable consequence of the market and know-how. However they’ve misplaced the outrage, and so they’ve misplaced the sense of how harmful it’s to let any small group of individuals have that a lot data that they will use to control us.

Laurel: We have fallen into this entice of considering, “Effectively, we use these providers free of charge, so giving them somewhat little bit of my knowledge, I am okay with.” However that is not likely what we’re speaking about anymore, is it?

Paul: I feel this one is a tough one as a result of by and huge, the price from, say, every individual letting these firms have all this data will not be one thing that every particular person bears. It is actually a value to society, so letting them have data from all of us implies that they’ve monumental monopoly energy. They will acquire monumental returns and accumulate this monumental quantity of wealth that you just described. However it additionally provides them the power to, for instance, show focused political advertisements, the place one demographic group is being proven a message from one candidate that the remainder of us by no means see. And people advertisements, identical to the technique for engagement, these advertisements typically attraction to animosity, tribalism, anger. Once more, we’re utilizing promoting to reinforce, to develop the worst aspect of human nature. And you do not have to look very far in historical past to see how dangerous issues can prove if you amplify and normalize this very ugly, offended aspect of our instincts about us versus them.

Laurel: A slight shift: It appears as quickly as we as a society establish one thing as too huge to fail, it fails, inflicting unknown and sometimes catastrophic outcomes. I am considering of Boeing for instance. So what do you consider Boeing and the way giant it is change into and what that truly means?

Paul: After the 2008 monetary disaster, I wrote a paper saying that the FFA, mixed with the NTSB, the Nationwide Transportation Security Board, these two businesses had been the gold commonplace for regulation. We needs to be attempting to have an identical sort of construction for regulating monetary markets. Effectively, quick ahead a decade and a half, what’s occurred is that Boeing, as this concentrated curiosity, was capable of work by means of the Congress and cite the messages from economists about how regulation slows down innovation. And Boeing managed to eviscerate what was once this very efficient regulatory system on the FAA with some oversight by the NTSB.

After which Boeing, in consequence, as a result of there was no regulatory oversight, constructed this actually kludge of an airplane that turned out to be extremely harmful and killed folks. So it is a story of the erosion of regulatory capability that was achieved by means of fairly easy means, for instance, simply slicing the price range or limiting the price range on the FAA, in order that they could not rent sufficient folks to do the job they had been assigned to do, to manage Boeing.  So this was a case the place, by undercutting the regulation, Boeing damage its staff, damage its shareholders, killed folks. It was a very horrible flip of occasions, however I feel it is a warning for us as a result of individuals who say, effectively, like Fb, are saying, “Effectively, let’s simply have some regulators that regulate the tech companies.”

What the Boeing episode tells us is {that a} agency that is sturdy sufficient can truly corrupt and eviscerate any regulatory system, and might typically seize these regulators. So I am very pessimistic that any regulatory physique can truly rein in and management these companies. And naturally, I feel that is why Fb is advocating for regulation as a result of they know that is the measure that would go away them within the strongest place. So once I began considering, effectively, what can we do about these companies? I began from the very starting and stated, “We have got a system with checks and balances, with a sort of govt department, the place regulators sit. You’ve got bought the judiciary that hears antitrust instances. And you have got the legislature.” Which of those three techniques is the one to make use of to attempt to cope with the issues that we’re going through?

I concluded that I feel regulators would simply not work as a result of the companies we’re coping with are already approach too highly effective. And I additionally, this can be a separate level that we may discover, however I additionally suppose that the judiciary and antitrust, conventional antitrust legal guidelines, are usually not effectively suited to coping with this downside. So the best way ahead, it appeared to me, was for us as voters to say to our legislators, “We do not wish to stay in a society like this, the place a number of people have a lot energy, and the place they’re utilizing that energy to sort of undermine the standard of social life and threaten our democracy.” So if we stated that to our legislators, we might inform the legislators, “Cross a legislation that stops this dangerous conduct.” After which the tax that I proposed was a measure that legislatures may move that might do lots to resolve the issues that we’re going through.

Laurel: Let’s speak somewhat bit about that. You talked about a progressive tax on promoting. How would that work?

Paul: Once you impose a tax, it’s a must to anticipate that individuals will do issues to keep away from paying tax. So I designed a tax the place the issues they might do to attempt to keep away from paying tax are precisely the issues we would like them to do. So we would like this tax to be progressive. The larger the full promoting income the agency collects, the upper the tax price. So if certainly one of these companies splits itself in two, like if Fb had been to spin Instagram out, the full tax invoice for the 2 companies could be smaller after they’re separate in comparison with when it is a part of one mixed entity. So the progressivity within the tax encourages cut up ups, spin outs. It discourages progress by acquisition.

The opposite factor is that I advised it’s a tax imposed on income from digital promoting. So if these companies do not wish to pay this tax, they might shift to a subscription mannequin, the sort of mannequin that Netflix makes use of, or a service like Duolingo makes use of, so that individuals truly pay one thing to get entry to some invaluable service. So you are able to do this, however this tax needs to be sufficiently big to create an actual stick that in the event you do not do one thing to vary, you are going to pay a variety of tax to the federal government in the event you keep on with this very damaging mannequin.

Laurel: I used to be completely captivated by this mannequin and the truth that it is actual within the US state of Maryland. The state legislature is contemplating laws, Senate Invoice Two, to create an promoting tax on tech firms, and it really works like this, a tax someplace between 2.5% and 10% could be utilized to digital advert gross sales within the state of Maryland on IP addresses. And that will be an enormous amount of cash raised, one thing like $250 million yearly. So that you had been a part of that effort to essentially push this by means of the legislature. What did you say in your testimony to assist this concept?

Paul: Simply to sort of simply recap the place we’re, they’ve truly handed this invoice. The governor vetoed it on the finish of final 12 months, however the legislature overrode the veto, so this invoice is now legislation in Maryland. It’s going to be challenged by these tech firms, normally working by means of some entrance organizations that they’re going to use to problem it in court docket. So now we have some methods to go on this struggle, the struggle’s not over. However the message I gave to the legislators, I imply first, I wrote an op-ed within the New York Instances, which is what any person there learn after which reached out to me about pursuing this concept. They had been on this partly as a result of they’d made a dedication to considerably enhance their academic system and so they had been on the lookout for sources of income.

However additionally they understood the issues with huge tech, and understood the attraction of going after a tax which truly is concentrating on dangerous conduct. To set expectations, I feel there’s an opportunity that the present invoice might be overturned in court docket. There’s going to be a variety of authorized sources which might be deployed to attempt to struggle this. And one of many issues I instructed the legislators in personal is simply anticipate that the primary invoice is likely to be overturned. Watch and see what this actually considerably politicized federal judiciary goes to say is improper with the invoice, and be able to move a brand new model that avoids the issues that they complain about. So this can be a long run battle plan now we have to have, and we should not be anxious about setbacks alongside the best way.

The opposite level I made to them was that almost all taxes discourage good issues. Should you imposed a tax on going to highschool, fewer folks would go to highschool. That’d be a nasty tax. However this can be a tax which discourages a nasty factor, and that is an important sort of tax to pursue if you want income, and it is a approach to discourage dangerous issues. I liken it to my co-recipient for the prize, Invoice Nordhaus’ thought of a tax on carbon emissions, which has the identical motivation, which is to cease folks from doing one thing which may be very dangerous for all of us.

The opposite factor is that the tax charges that they thought had been politically possible in Maryland are frankly too low to make a lot distinction for these tech companies. Even when each state in the US, or the federal authorities adopted a tax on the charges that they are taking a look at, progressive from 0%, to 2%, to 10%, this may be sort of small change for these tech firms. So I’ve a brand new proposal that I am about to launch for the nationwide authorities, the place we impose taxes that get a lot increased and which I feel actually are sturdy sufficient to vary conduct in these tech companies. And one different factor we would wish to discuss is why it is so essential to tax income somewhat than company earnings as a result of the company earnings tax is a deeply flawed and failing approach to attempt to tax firms.

Laurel: That appears to be a difficulty in the US that is developing an increasing number of, as firms search for artistic methods to keep away from paying on these company income numbers.

Paul: It is actually a shedding battle as a result of conceptually, earnings is the distinction between income and value. Income and value are incurred in other places, so you may’t say, “The place is earnings earned?” That creates at this stage of precept, I imply, neglect about how onerous it’s to get the data it’s essential impose this tax. Even in the event you had all the data you needed, cheap folks can differ about the place earnings is earned as a result of it is a distinction in two issues. That creates all this chance for companies to shift the authorized location for earnings and to maneuver earnings to those low tax jurisdictions, so that you get this race to the underside, completely different jurisdictions are competing by providing decrease and decrease company tax charges.

Some folks suppose you may patch this and attempt to restrict this conduct. I feel you are simply combating a shedding battle, and we actually want to modify to one thing like taxing income as a result of we all know the place income is collected. We all know that there are advertisements that these companies receives a commission to serve up, which might be proven to folks in Maryland, or in Massachusetts, or California. And so this empowers every of these states to tax income that’s incurred in these states. And so they do not face this situation of a race to the underside.

Laurel: We’re rising taxes, however we’re doing it for a great cause as a result of training wants more cash. We’re additionally doing it as a result of these giant firms aren’t paying their justifiable share. 10% could sound like a big quantity, however not if you’re speaking about tons of of billions of {dollars}. However this can be a begin. Proper? So the Omidyar Community is taking a look at the way you truly implement numerous coverage concepts to rebalance this inequity within the knowledge economic system. That is one resolution. Are you able to consider others? Are you taking a look at others?

Paul: It is essential to emphasise that this won’t tackle all the points we face related to companies which might be so giant and so highly effective. Apple, for instance, doesn’t seize a lot income by means of promoting, and it is bought a really sturdy market place that individuals could wish to take into consideration different measures that may restrict its energy. I frankly am not as anxious about Apple as a result of Apple is not destroying our democracy and undermining the standard of life. However there are conventional the reason why you won’t need companies which might be so highly effective.

Amazon, for instance, is now amassing a rising share of its income by means of promoting, but it surely additionally had very sturdy positions in simply being the platform for matching consumers and sellers. So it might nonetheless be a really highly effective drive, even when it simply deserted digital promoting income. So in each of those instances, there’s room to consider different measures that might cope with the normal issues of companies which might be too giant. When it comes to the precise measures that one may make use of, the one a part of antitrust legislation that is been considerably underutilized and needs to be introduced again is merger evaluation. It needs to be a lot tougher for certainly one of these dominant companies to accumulate a brand new agency that might probably develop right into a competitor, such because the Fb buy of Instagram or WhatsApp.

In a correctly functioning system, these mergers and acquisitions mustn’t have been allowed, in order that’s a straightforward factor to do. The a part of antitrust which I feel is simply doomed is attempting to convey a lawsuit and cost them with committing a criminal offense, after which get a choose to agree to interrupt them up primarily based on their “crime” that they’ve dedicated. This can be a very crude approach to attempt to restrict measurement, and it places judges able which is de facto untenable for them. It’s a very difficult kind of penalty to impose, and so their tendency has been even in instances the place there is a clearly demonstrated violation of the antitrust legislation, like there was with Microsoft, judges overturned. Within the appeals courts, they overturned the breakup treatment that the Justice Division had proposed.

And to be clear, I labored with the Justice Division in crafting this treatment. The appeals courts refused to implement one thing that they felt was so aggressive and so intrusive. And I feel that is the issue we’ll face with any lawsuit that tries to now drive Fb to spin out Instagram. So the one approach I see to get these two issues separate now’s to create a really sturdy incentive, so that they’re going to save $10 billion a 12 months in taxes in the event that they cut up it into two firms as a substitute of operating it as one firm.

Laurel: So maybe we should always get down into these particulars a few progressive tax on promoting. If that’s one potential lever, how does that progressive tax work? And would it not essentially be federal, or may it’s state by state, by municipality?

Paul: I feel that it could possibly be both. And that is why it is so essential to choose income as a result of completely different jurisdictions may make their very own selections on this. This has implications internationally as effectively. The US may determine how a lot it needs to tax advert income, however Canada may make its personal resolution on that. Germany and France may make their very own selections. So we wish to empower all of those completely different jurisdictions to make their very own selections in response to the desires of their residents and voters. So we wish to get away from a system the place it’s a must to have these worldwide tax treaties the place all people’s agreeing to do the identical factor to have the tax system work, and that is actually the place we’re with the company earnings tax.

However when it comes to the extent of taxation, I wish to be clear about this. The sort of tax that I feel would create an enormous incentive to vary at, say, Google and Fb, the 2 greatest companies on this market, I feel this needs to be a tax the place the typical tax price they pay proper now, given their measurement, is on the order of 35%. So 35% of their income could be collected by the federal government if they do not change, if they only keep on with enterprise as traditional. And to get to a mean tax price, in case your tax price is sort of step by step rising as you come up, you begin with an enormous bracket the place there is no tax in any respect, after which it is a 5% tax, 10% tax. To get a mean tax price of 35%, it’s essential have marginal tax charges, just like the tax on the very best bracket of income. You want marginal tax charges which might be 50%, 60%, even approaching 70%.

So this must be a really aggressive tax. Individuals will scream like caught pigs once I go public, as I suppose I am doing proper now about what these tax charges must be. However there’s a few simple methods to answer this. I imply, one is, these firms will say, “Should you took 30% or 40% of our income, you’ll kill us.” Effectively, that is truly not true–30% or 40% of their income would simply transfer them again to what they had been incomes in 2019, 2020. They’ve skilled monumental progress. All people thought they had been viable in 2018, 2019, 2020, so it could actually’t be true that you just take away 30% of their income, immediately income that was nice three years in the past is now not possible to stay on on this new mannequin. And naturally, it’s because their prices are primarily fastened prices. They will simply scale up what number of of those advertisements they serve up with out incurring much more price.

So they might definitely be viable in the event that they needed to pay 30%, 40% of their income to the federal government. And this may truly entice and acquire an inexpensive quantity of income that could possibly be used, say, to finance the infrastructure invoice, for instance. $50 billion, $60 billion and rising per 12 months in tax income. The opposite factor a few tax that’s aggressive is that it does imply {that a} agency that may pay $15 billion, on the scale of Google and Fb, would possibly pay $12 billion, $15 billion in tax a 12 months. In the event that they cut up themselves in half, that’ll go down dramatically, possibly from $12 billion to $6 billion, or $15 billion to $6 billion. And in the event that they cut up themselves into 4 items, their tax invoice would go down, the full tax invoice throughout all the surviving companies, the full tax invoice could possibly be as little as $2 billion.

And the rationale to be so aggressive about that is that if these firms scream as they may, the reply is simply, pay attention, guys, in the event you do not wish to pay the tax, simply change to a subscription mannequin. Simply do not use the advertisements. Or in the event you do not wish to pay the tax, simply cut up your self up into unbiased firms. So I feel now we have to be able to tolerate and stay agency within the face of those screams of shock about excessive marginal tax charges and simply insist that, pay attention, we’re the residents on this nation. And in a democracy, we get to determine what sort of society we will stay in. And we do not wish to stay in a society that allows you to proceed to do what you are doing proper now.

Laurel: And that’s definitely distinctive traits of the info economic system. So we now have these problems with: How will we scale back disinformation? How will we enhance privateness? Rebalancing the wealth and lowering the financial dependency on these giant farms, to suppose that you can break up certainly one of them into 4 completely different firms and nonetheless have each be value $2 billion at the very least is sort of one thing else.

Paul: Value most likely, I do not know, $25 billion or extra. However they’d collectively nonetheless be paying $2 billion a 12 months, say, in tax.

Laurel: I am sorry. You are right. Thanks.

Paul: There is a film I like, Chinatown, with Jack Nicholson, the place on the very finish of the film one thing horrible occurs to an harmless lady who’s killed. And Nicholson is devastated. And a few pal says to him, “Neglect it, Jake. It is Chinatown.” The message is, you may’t do something. That is so difficult. The forces you are combating are so highly effective. You possibly can’t do something about this. Effectively, that is sort of the message economists have been sending for many years now. It is the market, neglect it. It is the market. You possibly can’t management what the market does. Should you’ve bought these companies that are actually dominating political promoting, neglect about it. Neglect it. You possibly can’t do something.

That is simply so false. As residents, we will determine we do not need them to have that sort of energy in our markets for political promoting. We do not need all of those secret focused advertisements which might be inflaming the passions. And so the economists must cease encouraging this discovered helplessness amongst the citizenry, and we must be saying, “It’s as much as us to determine what sort of a society we wish to stay in.” And if we decide, we get our legislators to make a change.

And by the best way, I feel that regardless of the polarization we’re seeing proper now, this situation is likely to be one the place you can entice some consideration from each the left and the appropriate as a result of the appropriate has been keenly conscious of the large energy, say, that Mark Zuckerberg possesses, or Jack Dorsey possesses at Twitter. And so they’re now sort of shifting away from their traditional protection of, effectively, it is the market, so it have to be good, and recognizing, no, there’s some elements of this market equilibrium that we predict are actually dangerous, which might be sort of inconsistent with the rules of freedom and free speech that this nation was based on. So I am mildly optimistic that that is one thing the place we may attain some sort of a consensus and really do one thing.

Laurel: Talking of illustration, on which America is based, there have been rumblings in Congress holding these companies accountable. Are you hopeful that may truly occur?

Paul: Effectively, I feel these rumblings have been considerably helpful in elevating consideration. However they’re principally, to this point at the very least, theater. There’s actually no consensus round an agenda for what we may do. There are folks like Senator Warren, Senator Warner, who’ve been fascinated by measures we may undertake. However there’s been no coalescing round some sensible measure. So we have to get out, get moved past these showpieces, the place we specific outrage and attempt to watch these executives squirm. We have to get to the purpose the place we truly do one thing that can make a distinction.

Laurel: And what a terrific name to motion that’s. Thanks, Paul, for becoming a member of us at present on The Enterprise Lab.

Paul: Thanks. That is the primary time I’ve truly instructed folks, no, I imply marginal tax charges as excessive as 65%, 75%, so you might get some animated responses when this goes stay. However folks also needs to go have a look at my weblog as a result of I will even have analytics behind this obtainable on my weblog. And anyone who’s can be taught extra there.

Laurel: That was Paul Romer, Nobel Prize-winning economist and professor at New York College, who I spoke with from Cambridge, Massachusetts, the house of MIT and MIT Know-how Overview, overlooking the Charles River. That is it for this episode of Enterprise Lab. I am your host, Laurel Ruma. I am the director of Insights, the customized publishing division of MIT Know-how Overview. We had been based in 1899 on the Massachusetts Institute of Know-how. And you could find us in print, on the internet, and at dozens of occasions annually around the globe. For extra details about us and the present, please take a look at our web site at

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